The Hidden Shock Of Suicide

SPEAKER_00 0:00

You wouldn't believe how many times I've talked to people who were caught off guard when someone takes their life and they're just like, we what? We had no idea. It is not a hassle, it is not a bother, it is bestowing an honor on someone when you choose them. Hey, you got a minute? I'm not okay. My editor flat out said to me in my book, he says, Listen, you cannot print this.

SPEAKER_01 0:28

Welcome to veteran voice. Your host.

Tom Faust 0:51

Welcome to Veteran Voices. I am Tom Faust, your co-host, along here with my son Chris. Today we have uh Dr. Tony Dice for the second interview. We interviewed in episode 44. So we talked about your transition out of the SEAL teams. Uh, we talked about addiction that followed and uh how you finally sought help, your work with first responders. Uh, we don't want to repeat all that stuff, we want to go a little deeper now that you have the book and and we'll talk a lot about the book.

SPEAKER_00 1:22

Yes, yeah. Let me talk about that.

Tom Faust 1:25

Are we ready? We want to jump in. Yeah, I think we're ready to get going here. So

Recovery That Rewired His Life

Tom Faust 1:29

so since our first conversation, what did uh after the trident help you understand about yourself that you had not yet put into words?

SPEAKER_00 1:39

I mean, let me just let me just tell you, and this kind of you know, the hinges on the whole recovery thing. You know, I hit bottom, blew up my life, and I entered into a program of recovery. It was a 12-step based program I went through, and and over the course of a year, everything in my life changed. You know, it was like there was almost like almost a personality change and like my approach towards doing stuff. I was like, I was doing things out of gratitude. I was like, oh, grateful for my life. I was grateful for my wife, I was grateful for my kids, and I was trying to express my gratitude. And so I had a different place, I was approaching my world. And in this time, I was also, you know, like attacking academia. I mean, in in recovery, I I uh I went through my associates, my undergrad, my master's, my PhD. It was like 10 years of academia, and I just charged at it. But in that time, especially through the PhD portion, which by the way, guys, I mean, anybody, you know, go for it. I'm all for going back to school, but master's level, the PhD was so much harder. I I was blown away at how much more they asked of me. But in that journey, a lot of this stuff was delving into theory and delving into like these different ways of approaching different counseling theories. And I was I was as I was in it, I was recognizing, whoa, I did this, you know, like that say the concept of narrative therapy. I was like, wow, I did this in my recovery, you know, and and you know, the stages of change or you know, cognitive behavioral therapy. I was recognizing portions of this that I did in 12-step recovery programs. I was like, whoa, I did all these things. It wasn't labeled as such. I didn't know I was doing it. I'm sure my sponsor didn't know he was doing it, but that was the process. Now, all my degrees were in the field of counseling. And, you know, so I deal with therapists and counselors, I go to conventions, I talk to the therapists and counselors, and I was also taken aback by how little they knew, not only about, you know, uh 12-step recovery, but just addiction. I mean, it was, yeah, they knew about it, they knew the theory of it, but then the meat and potatoes, the grit, um, especially the veterans' point of view, you know, how they approach recovery and how their defenses are up, all of that almost like it needed translation for them. And so here I was with this awareness of these counseling terms and theories, and this awareness of what it felt like in recovery. And I was able to kind of parse together, like, okay, when someone goes through this prop program of recovery, they're going through, you know, stages of change, followed by, you know, narrative therapy, followed by CBT, followed by existential. Now, that's the language that therapists could understand. And so I kind of made a name for myself going at to conventions, and I even got at the the peak of my touring, I got invited to present at the International Association of Counseling's Global Summit in Italy. And I got to present this to counselors around the world about what's going on in 12-step recovery programs. And so it was almost like a translation tool. I can I created the holistic change model, which is a way for therapists to understand what recovery looked like. Okay, so flip that around a couple more times. I've been working with veterans in recovery for over a decade. I began using the same tool to explain to high performers, veterans, who needed a little more understanding or a little more of justification of what 12-step recovery is because you know, for many it has a bad rap, it seems super religious, and you know, it's like, uh, you want me to drink the Kool-Aid, but you're not going to tell me what the ingredients were. I kind of use this model as to explain to them, hey, there are there are viable theories involved here. Here's what you'll be working in the beginning, here's what the middle looks like. There's some substance to this, and this helped, particularly in the veteran community, where um I could show them a manual. You know, I could show them the breakdown of what's going on. And I mean, that was something they ate up. I mean, they were like, okay, this is something I can buy into, or this is something I'm willing to jump into. Because for most of them, recovery, for I mean, for most addicts and alcoholics, recovery is something you have to jump into. You can't just, I'm gonna try not drinking so much. You know, it's something you got to go all in and surround yourself with people in recovery to be successful. That's just what I found in my time. So that whole process led me to this understanding of a way to explain recovery, particularly to veterans, and understand my um my dissertation, meaning like my at the culmination of my PhD, I did a meta-analysis on what interventions worked best for veterans, you know, and I kind of distilled it down to what were the nuts and bolts and what did work, what worked best. And so my whole focus has been on the veteran community, you know, veteran law enforcement first responders, like our nation's heroes, the people who you know our hardest to help, or you know, the ones who uh put everything on the line are also the most heavily defended and resistant to change. I think that was a big answer for what you asked.

Chris Faust 7:04

It was. That's all right. Um,

The Need To Feel Pattern

Chris Faust 7:07

so as far as like you know, what the book revealed and everything, you once saw alcohol, drugs, trauma, relationships, money, and purpose as separate problems. Um, what led you to recognize the deeper pattern you called a need-to-feel problem?

SPEAKER_00 7:21

Yeah, that was that was the nuts and bolts. Like the thing in every one of those is the either feeling successful or feel like uh I can be trusted, or feeling loved, or feeling sex, or feeling, you know, high. All those were the need to feel. I wanted to feel something. And and part of my recovery journey was to kind of look back in my life as far as I can remember and look for patterns. And one of those patterns was, you know, I like drugs and alcohol didn't really enter my become a problem until much later in life. In the beginning, there was all these other things I was doing, I don't want to say habitually, but I was pursuing them with vigor to feel something, you know, and it's almost like quiet, sitting still didn't wasn't comfortable for me. You know, there was this uh I need to do something to kind of quiet the noise, you know, or to just feel like I'm being successful. And for a long time I blamed my parents. Oh, my mom just she always yelled at me for having my hands in my pockets or always making me clean something. And you know, don't don't you be sitting around when everyone else is working, you know, all that programming, but that was part of it, you know. The other part of it is I had this curiosity in me to want more. And that that pattern repeated itself throughout my whole life. And so when, you know, you you accomplish things, and I was a paramedic and I was a firefighter, and I first when it was a Navy SEAL, and this line of what's more look like kept going. And I would accomplish something, but still have this desire to feel more. So there was this sense of a moving target, you know, and there were a lot of people out there I've found that I call them high performers, but it could be anybody who's been successful in different parts of their life, where they chase something, you know, and they're very dogged, and society rewards this type of person very well because they're successful in a lot of things they do, but at the peril of an unbalanced life. You know, the family may suffer, the kids may suffer, you know, the credit may suffer. There's a lot of things that suffers when you become obsessive and compulsive towards one thing.

Tom Faust 9:30

Yeah,

The Water Tower Turning Point

Tom Faust 9:31

so that um sounds kind of like it leads into your water tower story and neutrenti.

SPEAKER_00 9:38

Yes, oh my god.

Tom Faust 9:40

There's little cliff notes on that story.

SPEAKER_00 9:43

Uh the cliff notes on the story? Okay, cliff cliff night story. Uh yeah, okay. Uh the water tower story. I mean, I I share this, I use it as like an opener for keynotes presentation because it's a it's a it's a microcosm of the macro of my life, you know. Yeah, I was sh it's it's couple, it's two minutes long. Let me share it with you. Um, yeah, I I was coming home for a run. I was trained to be an AV SEAL. And every day as I finished up towards my apartment, there was this big hill and I charge up the hill. And this particular day I was feeling squirrely as hell, and I looked up, there's this dirt road going up the mountain, and I just charged it and hit it hard and pushed myself so up and hard up that hill. Top of the mountain, there's a water tower. I looked around and I was like, screw it. And I climbed around the little safety gate and I get up there, beautiful view, breathing hard, just taking it in. It was just, it was a picturesque, perfect end to a nice workout. I climb back down, go down the dirt road into my house, and I start pulling out my couch out of my living room. And I get it up, it's like six feet long, I get on my shoulders, and I hump that up the hill, and I take this rope and I pull it up in the water tower and I set it up, and I'm sitting on this couch overlooking the valley, and it is just it's almost surreal that this beautiful, I'm kicking it. And so I get up and I go back down the road and go into my apartment and I start pulling my barbecue out of the off the deck out, and then I pull it on my shoulders and I get it up the mountain, I pull it up there, and I'm cooking a steak, and I'm sitting on my couch and having a corona, and the sun's getting low, and I'm sitting, I'm literally like, this is the best day of my life. And I was almost like ecstatic. And I hear on this megaphone, you on the water tower, and I look over the edge, and I mean, it was a utilities company, it was a sheriff's department, it was a police department, it was all these cars coming up the road and pulling in. I had been setting off pressure sensors on top of the water tower all day, and they had this response unit up there. I come down and I'm trying to I go to explain, and they cuff me up, put me in the back of the squad car. Uh I mean, it was they charged me with um, it was called terrorist tampering with city water supply. It was a charge that made me ineligible for the delayed enlistment program, and my Navy career was Bye. I mean, I I was in the back of the police car going, what's what what? And they send their junior man up and he pushes my couch off and pushes the barbecue off. And the barbecue, which I'm in the back of the squad car screaming, nah, because it I had borrowed it from my brother-in-law who embarked it from the chief of police. It wasn't even my my barbecue. So, I mean, one minute, I mean, I didn't, I didn't know how to stop. Like the run, the climb up the hill, the water tower, the couch, the bar. Like until something stops me, I don't know when to say when. You know, each one of those instances was me trying to have more and more. And each time was more amazing, which encouraged me to go further. But that was me in a nutshell, and that pattern repeated throughout my life. You know, and and and it's funny that I was um, you know, I had worked in that town, luckily, as an ambulance driver. So I'm I'm going before the judge and my suit and my attorney, and I'm giving the judge all these letters of me being a good guy. And the judge asked me to make a statement, and I said, you know, Your Honor, uh, at the mercy of the court, I screwed up. This charge prevents me from entering into the Navy. I want to be a Navy SEAL. And the judge looks at me. I had enough out of boys to make up for my screw up, and he gives me, like, you know, reduce the trespassing, contingent on me joining the Navy. And so that little feature there where I do a good job, I show up, people like me, I'm a go-getter. You know, that makes up for every once in a while when I step outside the box and I blow up my life, and all of a sudden I'm able to not have huge consequences. You know, you have enough silver bullets saved up, you're able to get out of something once in a while. That pattern kept going on.

Chris Faust 14:01

So going off of that, you know, you you you reach the top of the water tower, but obviously that wasn't enough. You know, you kept adding more, doing more there. Um, so you know, you you kind of explained it like, you know, in hindsight, you know, like that kind of revealed that you know you your relationship with achievement, danger, and intensities. You you you want more, right? So, how can someone tell the difference uh between like you know fully feeling alive and needing stronger stimulation just to feel anything at all?

Alive Versus Numb And Needing More

SPEAKER_00 14:29

Yeah, because I'm not trying to discourage people from doing cool things. That's by no means, you know, but there are people out there who are going through their life and they they're maybe being successful, but there's like a dashboard like kind of blinking, you know, like there's there's problems at home starting, or they're just not feeling like they're enough. They're maybe having bounces of anxiety or depression, you know, there are other indicators in their life that there's a sense of being out of balance, you know, or the sense of like, gosh, I I've made so many, I got the promotion, you know, I got the better job. And there's this sense of like not feeling fulfilled yet. You know, why am I not plateauing here? Those are indicators that are just is this action of pursuing, is that you trying to change the way you feel on the inside, you know, and the the balanced individual may have many tools at their disposal to help them get through the day. Like you might be angry and you go for a run and it cools you up. That's awesome. That's a great little outlet. But if you depend on going for a run to change how you feel all the time, whether you're happy, sad, glad, and you end up running two or three or four times a day, that leaves to problems like joint injuries, your wife yelling at you for running all the time, you're going through all kinds of run running gear. You you see that you can overuse any type of coping strategy too much. And that when it falls into the realm of addiction, you're now a running addict. And so, yeah, so that the success addict, you know, the high achieving addict is someone who has found unbalance in their life by being successful.

Tom Faust 16:18

So

How Childhood Trains The Nervous System

Tom Faust 16:19

let's let's back it up a little bit then into uh you know the patterns that you grew up with that may have brought this on. Because you describe your child at home as being creative yet chaotic, physically dangerous and emotionally intense. How does that environment train your nervous system?

SPEAKER_00 16:35

I know I had some key takeaways when when going over my early childhood memories, you know, and talking with someone else. And that's the key, a little tiny side note here. When you discuss something like this, like a memory or process something with someone else, whether just outside of your own head, you begin to allow yourself to take on it, takes on a different perspective. So it's not just you thinking about it. You know, I call this an echo chamber, and I will distort the heck out of stuff if I leave it in my head. When I get it out, it becomes more real. We can look at it from different sides. So my childhood, when looked at, you know, I had these themes of you know being adventurous, but also, you know, getting in trouble. And so that made me very risk tolerant. You know, I I could be a lot of consequences weighing over my head, and I was okay with that, you know. So that sense of it's okay, if it's risky, as a child, I was getting away with a lot of things, even though there are high consequences, like my dad would beat the shit out of me, or or I was doing something really, really dangerous or illegal. I became more and more comfortable with risk, you know, and to be able to be engaged in risky behavior over and over again throughout your life, it's funny how your your perception of what's normal also shifts with that. So to everyone around you, they're going, holy shit, what are you doing? And you're like, this is just a normal day for me. What's the problem? So my my tolerance for risk was was uh getting higher and higher. Also, you know, being in a chaotic home uh where there's a lot of yelling and some instability, uh, there was a uh mixed messaging of allowing you to have rope swings and play with power tools and all these other things going on, but also super religious and this conservative side, this mixed messaging made me feel very, I don't want to say comfortable in chaos, where a chaotic environment was kind of almost soothing to me, you know. Not uh maybe just not soothing like I'm gonna have a nap, but I was okay in chaos. And in fact, if it was peace and quiet, that became uneasy to me. So this, and that would that was a pattern ingrained in my youth that later on played out. You know, I I actually got fairly uh you would almost say addicted to going overseas, you know, deployments where I went overseas and it's very simple. You have good decision, bad decision. Um, I'm keyed up and there's a reason to be keyed up, so I feel at ease. I feel like I'm supposed to be here, and then come back to the United States where there's there's no threat of death, there's all these shades of gray of feelings and bills, and just all this other stuff, and I'm keyed up and there's no reason to be keyed up, so now I just feel crazy. So this going back to this chaotic war zone, there was a sense of peace being there.

Chris Faust 19:36

So, kind of following that, how does somebody begin to recognize that you know what feels familiar and normal to you uh may actually be harmful?

SPEAKER_00 19:46

Gotcha, gotcha. Yeah, that that is the another one of the key things here is that you can't do this on your own. You know, in order to have a different perspective, you need to allow someone else in who can see it from a different angle, you know. We, especially people who are developing problems, either in addiction or uh obsessive compulsive, begin to develop our own blinders. We begin to not see problems. You know, we're very much being focused in on getting our needs met or how I want to feel, and we begin to not see things like whether I'm damaging the family, whether I'm hurting other people's feelings. We begin very tunnel-focused. Having that other individual in on the conversation allows a perspective that you can't see. It sees around your own denial of a situation. That is where you can begin to recognize problems and developing. Now, a lot of people who have healthy friendships, healthy marriages, have good relationships, are socially integrated well, have a high degree of communication with others. They're already trusting people around them who are saying things like, hey, you know, you're spending an awful lot of time at work, maybe just spending time with the family, or the wife is able to articulate this and the husband can hear it. You know, those things are all part of a healthy dynamic. But when I got my blinders on and I'm focused on go, go, go, I'm not hearing any of this feedback. It takes developing a healthy connection with some person, one person who can give you feedback and perspective, and you go, Oh, I do do do that. That is something I am struggling with. So it's that additional perspective that allows them. And in recovery, this is someone called the sponsor. It in outside of recovery, it might be a therapist, you know, within a tight friend circle, it might be like you know, your lifelong buddy. It could be someone who you trust and you communicate openly and honestly with.

Tom Faust 21:45

What

Military Strengths That Become Traps

Tom Faust 21:46

kind of quality would look like your greatest strength, but later prove to be you know more capable of controlling you?

SPEAKER_00 21:55

Oh, let's start a long list here. Oh. I mean, it is there's so many things in uh gosh, the military. Let's just start there. The military. When you send off the boot camp, boot camp is not a peaceful process. You know, it is a brainwashing, it is a concentration camp. They are breaking you down and building you up so you are part of a war machine. You know, it is you it is not a healthy environment. It's like introduction to bullies 101. You know, you're gonna fold your skibby stat, we're gonna get your ass kicked. You know, you have this like, uh, I don't want to be late, I got everything right. You know, there's just this different mindset that you're programmed to go into, you know, and that follows you through the military. Um, you are what your reputation is, your uniform is you know, the first thing someone sees, and this whole different way in which we live and present ourselves. You know, it's image is everything, and gosh, it is it's wrought with um developing poor coping strategies. On top of that, you're given this, and this is my experience, when I entered the Navy, it did feel like my drinking kind of turned pro, you know. And I was issued this Swiss Army knife of emotion called alcohol. If you were having the worst day of your life, me and a bottle could sit down next to you and I would know what to do. We'd share this bottle and we'd get through with it. You know, if you're having the best day, worst day, so so day, you're bored. Alcohol fit the bill. You know, it it's it g I I put a flask in my first aid kit. It was like, okay, an emotional distress, break flask, you know. It was something in which uh the military taught me to use. So all these different coping strategies, you know, um handle your own shit. The team comes first, you know, you take care of you no matter what. You don't want to be that weak link. You know, even our interaction with military medical was I'm always okay, I'm fine, I'm good to go, even when I'm not, you know, all of that, that that um that's not really considered lying in the military. That's called being a you know part of the team, doing a strong team member. All of this kind of programming, and then when you leave the military, there's no de-boot camping process. You know, there's whether I don't know if they still have taps, but whatever that is now that transition out, it's nowhere near the processing power of boot camp. You know, there should be a month, two month-long program to re-civilionize you, yeah, reintegrate into society. Yes, the the the deep brainwashing, you know, uh there needs to be a substantial repair done to your mental health. Um, so yeah, all of that said, um so these these strong traits that the military encourage the hell out of. I'm not gonna quit. No matter what. I'm gonna, I'm gonna get I'm gonna get it done. I'm gonna be the underdog, I'm gonna push through, I'm not gonna drop out of buds, I'm not gonna, you know, I'm gonna I'm gonna be the last guy strained. You can count on me. I'm gonna show up no matter what. All of that kind of is is kind of it's unhealthy on a personal level. You know, it is has nothing to do with personal health, mental health, all of that. Those were all something that existed in my childhood, but were strongly reinforced in budget training and in SEAL teams and in the military as a whole, you know, and so getting out of the military, enter into uh my drinking and drug use escalated, all those strong characteristics of I can handle this myself, I'm not gonna quit, I'm gonna push through this, I've been through worse days, I don't really have a problem. All of that kept me in the disease of addiction even longer. And I see this in working with veterans so much that they're just they have this mindset that they can figure this out. I can work the problem, you know. I I I, you know, this constant, this constant sense of that I just need to bear down, I just need to put my head, I just need to find a solution. All this problem solving. And and the problem, I think, and I'm glad we went here right now because this is something I I always talk about, is in the military, there's these drop-down menus for solving problems, you know, like okay, do I need to commit chain of command, uh, you know, or but violence, we learn from very early on, is always an option, it's always a possible solution to a situation. And we have to go down the checklist and say, okay, violence won't work here. What else can I do? And it gets so ingrained in us when we leave the military. Uh when I go to problem solve, that violence option in my menu is still there. It's still in the top three things. You know, I'm walking down the road, there's a guy coming in front of me. What should I do? Drop down. I can kick him in the nuts, you know, I can punch him in the bed. Oh, no, I can't do that. I can step aside and say good day, sir. You know, it's I have to make a decision of what I'm gonna do with this situation, but violence is always there. So when things are dark and things are bad, and I've, you know, and I may have been drinking, and I think my life is just problematic for everyone around me. A possible solution drops down is taking my own life. That is a violent solution to this problem. And so every time I go there, I have to look at that as one of the solutions and talk myself out of that. I have to look at, okay, what else can I do? But that's always one of these decisions that I have to make. And I think this is why we see the higher suicide rate in veterans, is this is part of our program. You know, we are given this drop-down menu that includes a violent solution. That is part of our breeding. And so, you know, being able to understand that's where that comes

Asking For Help As An Honor

SPEAKER_00 27:49

from. Being able to articulate to someone, and I tell people all the time, you know, the magic words is finding someone and saying, either one of these two things, hey, you got a minute and I'm not okay. You know, those two things, those two things are the two code words, and the understanding that if I'm the person you're topic type you're tapping on the shoulder, if I'm the person you're asking, I I want you to understand that I am honored that you have chosen me out of everyone. That is a huge honor that you're choosing me to talk to. And I will treat it as such. It is not, oh, you know, taking my time, bothering me. It's not a hassle. It is an honor to ask someone to help. It is an honor. And I think, you know, if we could put it in terms of there is no greater war story, honor, hero story of me grabbing you off the battlefield and running you to safety. That is a huge honor I've bestowed to be able to be there for you, buddy. Off the battlefield, you are having your darkest day, and you are able to let me know hey, can you give me a hand and help me off this battlefield today? That's the same honor, that's the same place where you're allowing me to be in that moment with you. So it is, I hope people out there can hear this. It is not a hassle, it is not a bother, it is bestowing an honor on someone when you choose them. Hey, you got a minute, I'm not okay.

Chris Faust 29:31

So, kind of uh carrying on with that. Um, I I know you have like you know a whole bunch of stories in this book here.

SPEAKER_00 29:37

Um 76 of them.

Chris Faust 29:40

76 of them. Can you kind of walk us through one uh one of the stories from the book uh and explain what you believed while it was happening? Uh, you know, kind of like you know, what your 2020 hindsight allowed you to see and how the new understanding changed you?

SPEAKER_00 29:56

Gosh, okay, yeah. Uh let me let's pick one that's kind of uh that's kind of crazy. All right, this is a short one,

The Pigeon Story And Choosing Honor

SPEAKER_00 30:04

real quick. Uh, I was a little kid, and uh I remember I had a BB gun, and I remember looking outside, and there was a pigeon, and I shot the pigeon, you know, and I remember looking down the barrel of the BB gun. I'd never shot a pigeon before, and I see the pigeon, and I may I knew it was it was not okay, I was gonna get in trouble like a cot, but this is I was in San Diego at the time, so I'm like, you know, it's a city folk, and so I'm aiming at the pigeon, and I like let us and I pull the trigger and the pigeon drops, and I was like, whew, and I remember like feeling it. I remember like okay, hmm. I wasn't like grief stricken, but I do remember like huh, there's a little something there, and then I remember seeing another pigeon come down, and this was sad, you know. It it lands next to that pigeon, it's dead, and begins to circle that pigeon slowly over and over and over again, and looking at it and circling it, like it was its mate that I had just killed. And I remember seeing that and going, hmm, I can kind of feel something there. And I remember asking myself, well, I really shouldn't shoot the second one, but maybe it maybe it's hurting and it needs to be put down. I remember thinking that, and then I remember, I wonder if this is gonna feel differently shooting the next one. And I remember lining up on them and thinking about it and shooting the second one, and then assessing how that felt. And so there was this, even at a younger age, there was this awareness that these things feel differently. You know, the first pigeon was just because I wanted to see. The second one was, well, maybe it's I'm helping them and I'm putting them down. What does that feel like? 2020 hindsight, looking out there, there was this awareness that I didn't know yet, that there are moral guidelines, there are society guidelines, there are, you know, your parental guidelines they put that you could go up to, and they're supposed to be things that stop a lot of people from doing stuff, you know. Your mom told you not to, it's against the law, or that would just be mean. Those are lines in the sand that were that were drawn for me as I grew up. And I remember always being surprised when I came up to that line that, hmm, okay, I know I'm not supposed to do this, and being able to step over that line, and I didn't, nothing stopped me. Like I always thought something would stop me, like some internal piece of me would say, I can't do that. Because you always hear people, especially adults, say, Oh, I can never do that. And so throughout my life, I noticed that I could do all those things you people talk about. Like I can break the law, I can do what my parents told not didn't tell me not to, you know, and I kept stepping over. In in my recovery and reflecting back, it was only then that I realized, oh, you can come up to any one of these lines. And I know that I'm able to step over it, but I need to decide, I need to decide not to step over it. I need to look at it and say, okay, I'm not gonna do it because I I'm choosing to. And in that decision, that is where honor is found. You know, that is the honorable thing to do. And no one ever explained that to me. I didn't figure that out, but it was only into recovery and through reflection that I'm like, oh wow, that's that's how honor, you know, that the honorable thing to do would be to not to shoot the pigeon or the second pigeon, you know, but I didn't know that. And so by continuing to step over these lines throughout my life, there was a sense that, hmm, I'm not sure I'm an honorable person. I I like I don't know what I'm capable of, you know. I really thought that you know, there doesn't seem to be any limits to my behavior. So yeah, that was a that was a key reflection for me.

Tom Faust 33:52

Yeah,

The Holistic Change Model Explained

Tom Faust 33:53

I want to move on to your uh HC mod.

SPEAKER_00 33:56

Yes, the holistic change model.

Tom Faust 33:59

Yeah, this is something of yours, is that right?

SPEAKER_00 34:01

It is, it's free to all. I'm not trying to make any money off it. And it's actually, as I talked about it earlier in our broadcast today, it is a translation tool. You know, I have I have watched, I have witnessed, and I have gone out and seen the power of 12-step recovery programs. Uh, most people know the most popular ones like AA and NA, but there are over 200 different 12-step fellowships out there. I lost count, over 200. You know, there's gamblers anonymous, there's online gaming anonymous, there's over eaters anonymous, there's there's you name uh human condition, anxiety anonymous, PTSD anonymous. If you name a human condition, you type in 12-step recovery and that condition, you will find groups set up to deal with those issues. Now, I you know, I was wondering how can one program work so many different both chemical uh addictions and behavioral addictions, and just different processes people are trying to navigate. How does this program do all that? Well, I described earlier how the steps are broken into these four different theories, if practiced in this order, seem to be a produce a high degree of efficacy, you know, a high degree for success, particularly with veterans, particularly from addicts and alcoholics. And so the HC mod was those four therapeutic principles. Steps one, two, and three align with stages of change. Step four and five align with narrative therapy, steps six, seven, eight, and nine are all cognitive behavioral therapy, and then 10, 11, 12 is all existential therapy, finding their place in the world and finding purpose. So that succession is what I named it, and I you primarily use it as a way to translate 12-step recovery to other therapists, but I also use it as a teaching tool to allow, you know, veterans, law, first responders, a peek inside what's going on in different 12-step recovery programs. Now,

Why Online Meetings Changed Access

SPEAKER_00 36:05

while I got your ear on 12-step recovery programs to all you law enforcement types, and I bring this up, you know, because of my appreciation for the job they do. Um my experience working with them over the last decade has been they have they're even more defended than than veterans. They they're even a little bit spun tighter. And forgive me if I say a little bit more twisted. And the reason for this, you know, is that when I go overseas on a deployment and I go in country and I do whatever needs to be done, at some point I get to come home from my deployment and back in the good old USA. Well, a law enforcement, their experience is different than that. They are forever deployed, they are forever in country. And so they have this perpetual sense, even within their own neighborhood, even as of always being heavily defended and not wanting to, you know, crack the door at all at being open, authentic, or trusting with anyone. A major burden or challenge for this population has been trying to find a 12-step recovery meeting to go to where they did not feel like they've arrested people in their room, or these people are gonna find out they're a cop. And you know, and and the consequences of that prevent them from being honest or sharing or just getting the hell out of there. Well, the pandemic hit and shut down all the meetings in the world. And what happened because of this, we saw this explosion in Zoom meetings, online meetings. It blew up. There are thousands and thousands of them on every continent, in every language, and very, very specified. You can find law enforcement meetings, you can find, you know, meetings in Australia, you can find law enforcement meetings in California if you're in Virginia. This allowed, you know, specifically law enforcement personnel the ability to be anonymous in a meeting that pertains directly to them. So I'm in Virginia. I encourage law enforcement personnel to find a California meeting, find an Australian meeting. I love their access. I love going to Australian meetings because it's just sounds cool to me. But you know, whatever, whatever their jam is, it it gives them a new avenue to find uh a place where they can open up and let their garden.

Chris Faust 38:26

So kind of going off of that here, uh, I know that you know it's a it can be a big process, but can you kind of take one behavior or story from your book and kind of walk us through how that, you know, the four HC mod, you know, what walk us through those phases?

SPEAKER_00 38:39

Um, sure, sure, sure, sure. Um, let's let's first let me just address the book is broken into the 76 different experiences for my life. It also can be read three ways. One, it's a memoir, you know, it's it's an entertaining story about this guy who you're gonna think is a total asshole. I mean, I completely hated myself, what I had became. And then a redemption art towards the end. Uh, it's also can be read as a recovery tool. You know, if you were wanting to be able to find out more about how you might be processing the world around you, this book can help you better see yourself. And number three, I also wrote this as a a textbook for a counseling course, uh, you know, a college-level counseling course, like a recommended reading, because it does kind of crack the door to the embedded theory found 12-step recovery. So um the HC MUD, let's break this down into like what you would do if if someone found themselves in the

Walking Through Recovery Step By Step

SPEAKER_00 39:35

recovery. You know, they're like in the in my situation, I had just checked into the Farley Center in Williamsburg. Um, my life, I talk all about, you know, you picture me, I weighed 130 pounds when I checked in. And I'm typically 220 is my standing weight right now. I weighed 130 pounds hooked on crystal meth, and I'm shuffling around this treatment center carrying a teddy bear because the therapist told me to, and I was just willing to do anything. Now, what happened there in the HC Mod, the first three steps, you know, I I accepted I had a problem. I was uh I was open to doing anything to get out of it, holding a teddy bear, and I was willing, like I didn't even understand why a teddy bear would work. They just therapists said it, and I was willing to take suggestions. The therapist said, carry it 24-7 for the rest of your time in treatment. Now, there was no time in my entire previous life that I would have taken, been open to or followed that suggestion whatsoever. I mean, it was so far off the reservation, I would have just, you know, freaking seals, don't do teddy bears. What are you talking about? You know, but that's where I was. And while I was there in this process, I was being honest with the therapist, I was opening up to the group, I was telling my story, sharing about what I've been through. And that's four and five, that narrative therapy coming through. And as I, you know, transitioned out of being inpatient, you know, the suggestions were uh go to 90 meetings in 90 days, make sure you get a sponsor. You know, I we want you to change people, places, and things. Don't hang out with the same people before. All this cognitive behavioral instruction, changing behaviors to change your thinking, was taking place, and I was on board with it. And then finally, as I got out and I, you know, working with the sponsor, I'm going to meetings, I'm sharing, I'm seeing, you know, I'm being accountable on a daily basis. 10. I'm beginning to believe there's a future for me in this world, and that there's a sense that something greater than me is gonna look out for me, or that you know, I'm I'm being a productive member of society as a whole, and that's 11. And then 12, after about a year, I started sponsoring and helping someone else, you know, paying it forward. So that's in a nutshell, the HG mod in at work as I entered into recovery.

When Addiction Shape Shifts

Tom Faust 42:07

So so what gets missed in when treatment focuses only on the sub visible substance or destructive behavior as opposed to the system beneath it?

SPEAKER_00 42:16

Oh, this is this happens all the time, even before someone hits bottom or after someone hits bottom. Before someone hits bottom, gosh, you know, um, you get a high performer, you know, with a high degree of self-discipline, and and you know, they get out of the military. Now, the something that you guys already know, and I'm I'm preaching to the choir, but I I do want to reiterate it when I go into the military, I'm a person who loves freedom, loves their country, and and I didn't quite realize when I sign on the line that I will give up all my freedoms in order to do this. You know, I whoa, I I have I have very little control over my life. When I got out of the military, in one day, I get all those freedoms back. You know, it's like almost overwhelming, no accountability, I can do whatever I want, and let's go. You know, that kind of all in one day hits hard. It does hit hard. Yeah, so a high performer, you know, I start partying, though, though, maybe the spouse gives me an ultimatum. Hey, cut down the drinking, knock off the partying. And and there are many efforts where people are like, all right, I'm gonna focus at, you know, I'm gonna go all into jujitsu. I'm gonna go all into this new job I got. And I guess that becomes my drug of choice. I will be a high performer at work, I'll be the freaking gym rat on, I'll be rolling night and day, and that's my focus. Well, that's just changing one drug for another. And this may hold for quite some time. I mean, the spouse might say, Well, he's it's better than drinking, he's over there at the BJJ all night. You know, that that might be acceptable for a long, long period of time. There might be an injury, you know, a knee injury, blow out of shoulder. And there's this nut second change, you know. I'm gonna go into school, academia, go, go, go, go. And through life, this can continue, you know, it continues until something stops you, whether it be a spouse, whether it be uh uh law enforcement, and then there's a finding another drug. So this might be a pattern that just repeats and repeats and repeats. And for me, it did until I got to crystal math, which was finally the one that kind of like made me crater and and took all the wheels off the wagon, so to speak. After recovery, uh after someone hits bottom, they go to rehab, they come back out. We see this all the time. It is so easy to go from an alcoholic to a workaholic. I mean, that is just uh, you know, it becomes such a you feel like you're making progress in your life, you feel like you're getting your life back. It feels fulfilling at first, you know, it is very much it's almost like a self-rewarding thing. But if there's no real recovery or inward process, it's just once again shifting addiction. So that's what I I tell you know, addicts, alcoholics, veterans to look out for is hey, don't be in a hurry to get back into a job that has any kind of advancement, don't get into sales, you know, all those jobs that kind of reward the high performer, that's all uh very tempting to have that become your new addiction.

Fatherhood After Getting Sober

Chris Faust 45:24

Yeah, yeah. So your son played an important role in your decision to seek help. Uh how did that recovery change the kind of father you were able to become?

SPEAKER_00 45:37

I know I do several sections of my book on this, and um, and here's some little insight for you. You guys are the first to hear this. In my book, the audiobook just dropped yesterday, and I recorded all 104,000 words, and there's three bonus chapters in the audio book that are not in the text, and one of them is on this fatherhood part. Okay, so uh the the things here in fatherhood, number one, and this may sound simple enough, but it's something that I didn't quite grasp until in recovery, and that is to it's to respond rather than react. And it's not just respond as in like take a moment, think, you know, go through it. It's like what's the emergen, what's the emerging need? You know, if the kid comes to you with something, is there a crisis that you can help solve? Is are they in trouble? Are they worried? Deal with that first. You know, they I get a phone call in the middle of the night, and you know, it's freaking from a law enforcement officer who has pulled over my daughter for doing 100 miles an hour. You know, she's in crisis crying. I it's not gonna help her at all if I start yelling at her. My first goal is to talk to the officer on the phone and then talk to her to de-escalate her. Is she in a safe place? Deal with the crisis. The lessons learned is far more effective the next day. You know, it's far more effective than when we can sit down and they're able to articulate what their side was and you can have an appropriate response to it then. So for me, I have five kids. This has been huge because all of that entails me not losing my shit with them. Like, what's wrong with you? And all that stuff that you know that I experienced growing up, that kind of reactive anger, because I feel that, you know, inside me, I am thinking, what's wrong with you? But to be able to respond with a how to be the crisis management for them right now. And so this gives them two examples for them to learn from. One, you know, how to calmly handle a crisis. And two, it's just they're reacting to them and they know I'm a safe person to come to when there's a problem. You know, they know they're not gonna get in trouble immediately. They know they're not gonna get yelled at because I spent half my life hiding stuff from my parents so that I wouldn't get yelled at. Even if I had screwed up, you know, got cut my finger really bad, or I'd gotten in trouble with someplace else, I would do anything besides get my parents to know because they are going to yell at me and I would feel worse. So, yes, to respond rather than react with your kids and to respond to their emergency or their whatever their critical need is first and help them solve the problem. The other part is um, gosh, I am pretty open about my story with my kids. You know, I have had a I have a crazy story arc, and I've been at an age appropriate level, I've been able to tell them my story. You know, so in their teenage years, they fully heard about my my craziness with drugs and alcohol. You know, uh it is I've let them know very clearly that drugs and alcohol are not bad, they're amazing, and that's the problem. You know, they're you're gonna find them to be, wow, this is awesome. And that's where the the trap lies. And that you know, this unfortunately it's in your genetic code. So let my story be a uh a tale of warning and you know, a cautionary tale, but this is what happened to me, you know, and so that they know, you know, this is what this is what the potential could be. But also if they do end up following my journey, you know, I my path through drugs and alcohol, they have this awareness of like, okay, this is someone they can turn to as a means to get out of.

Tom Faust 49:30

So

Emotional Compulsivity In High Performers

Tom Faust 49:31

as as we apply the lessons that, you know, from your book, what what do military leaders, clinicians, treatment programs still misunderstand about emotional compulsiveness in veterans and other high performers?

SPEAKER_00 49:45

Yes, I think that this is missed by not only the military, but uh gosh, people themselves aren't aware. Emotional compulsivity is the term I use to describe the um the person's uh I would say their compulsion to try to change the way they feel from the outside. We spoke earlier about going for a run if you're angry. That's a good one. You know, going to the gym if you're frustrated, that's a good one. Uh eating uh having some ice cream, all are great, you know, one-offs. But we all know if you try to control your emotions by eating ice cream, you're gonna have consequences that are, you know, not so good. You're gonna have to you're gonna pay for that later. But these are traps people fall into. Now, if we take that the understanding that you're trying to change how you feel from the outside, it's not just drugs and alcohol, it becomes everything that you habitually turn towards to try to change your emotions. So it makes us kind of widen the purview of what addiction could be. And if we look at this and we say, all right, how much of our population are alcoholics and drug addicts? You know, and roughly 10 to 15% of our population could be classified as a drug addict or alcoholic. But if we widen that lens to include, you know, exercise fiends, workaholics, NASCAR fiends, whatever those, whatever it is that you are overly uh indulge in to a problematic level, this might be 80% of the population. So this emotional compulsivity could be a broader term for this action of trying to change the way you feel from the outside. In the military and in high performers, while you're doing it, it is so hard to see it. You know, this is something I'm doing to myself. It's no one else's business, you know, not it's no one else's problem but my own. What do you mean going to the gym and taking all these supplements every single day despite all the physical problems I'm having? This is my issue. These this denial we begin to live in to protect what we're overly pursuing becomes the problem. Now, it's if you have someone who's a high performer at work and they are all in, and this, I mean, their attention to detail is spot on, they're the first one there, they're the last one to leave, they always volunteer. This is a very valued person on the team. This is someone who we label with a strong work ethic. This is our number one go-to guy. This may also be the one who has the blinking dashlight who, you know, if left unchecked, could be the one that is engaging in self-harm or in entertaining a suicidal ideation in his off time when he's drinking. You know, we don't know to what extent this person's pushing themselves, you know, but this is a potential uh obsessive compulsive problem that's developing. We we you wouldn't believe how many times I've talked to people who were caught off guard when someone takes their life and they're just like, we what? We had no idea. That is just, I mean, they're just they can't wrap their head around this person had a problem or was going through something. Because in the military, we are incredibly good at hiding them. You know, there is just not a language for this open discussion that I'm I'm struggling, or this is what I'm thinking in my off hours, or this is where my mind goes, or I I'm never good enough.

No Addict Left Behind In Practice

Chris Faust 53:29

What does no addict left behind mean to you today? And how does it shape the work you choose to do?

SPEAKER_00 53:36

Well, there's there's two terms we use. We use at Bishop and Dice Defense, you know, we're a veteran-known small business, and you know, we go out there and our mission is for VAs, veterans, law enforcement, first responders, police departments, we'll go and in the first year, we'll whatever you guys need, will it be ammo, uniform supply, training, we're Johnny on the spot. And on year two, we bring in mental health services. Our motto, you know, is no hero left behind. And in substance of use circles, is no addict alcoholic left behind. What that means to us is that once you come and start talking with us, once you raise your hand and you even ask the question, do I even have a problem? What does the problem look like? And if so, what does the pipeline look like to get fixed? You know, what do I do next? These are all questions that may be in their head, but they don't know who to ask. They don't feel safe asking their chain of command. They don't feel safe, you know, I'm asking for a friend kind of conversation. What we do is we allow for them to reach out to us anonymously. We have a support group, they can log in anonymously, and they can just have conversations with people who are going through the same issues and find out what's happened to them, talk about what's going on with them, and assess whether or not their problems rise to the level of professional help. And so providing that service, you know, being a safe ear, being able to talk to someone who's kind of been through down the same road is actually very valuable. It's a valuable service that we offer. The first half of our company, that first year, the uniform supply, ammo, uh, all that training, all of that really supports the mental health side. We all know the mental health side doesn't pay what it should, but that's okay. Our mission is, you know, through proceeds from the books, through proceeds from, you know, selling ammo to law enforcement personal, all of that helps support the mission of leave no hero behind.

Tom Faust 55:32

So

Feeling Alive Without The Chaos

Tom Faust 55:33

let's uh let's wrap up with this one. Um, after everything you've survived, everything you did, rebuilt, uh, you know, what does it mean now to feel alive without needing the chaos?

SPEAKER_00 55:46

Man. Ah, there's this picture. I don't know if I share it with you guys last year, last time we spoke. I think we were in talked in September, maybe. There's this picture I keep on my desk. And it's a picture of me two weeks before I went into treatment. And it's a picture of me when I weighed 130 pounds, and I'm sitting there at Mount Trashmore and Virginia Beach with my son, and I look like I'm a you know, a Holocaust survivor. I look like I was just got out of a prison camp. And I mean, it was me right before I was taken into treatment. I keep that on my desk to remind myself that that life is still available to me. You know, that that is something I can still access if I choose to, you know, all I have to do is once again return to my old habits, you know, drinking, drug abusing, habitually chasing things, becoming obsessive compulsive again, and lose track of the benefits of a balanced life. And so that for me is the shift, is that I'm now living a life of gratitude. I mean, uh, every night before I go to bed, I ask myself these two questions. Was all my interactions today with everyone I I came into contact with, did I harm them or help them? You know, and if I help them, I I acknowledge that. It's like, dude, that was nice, you know. Good job. Do that again tomorrow. If I hurt them, it becomes a priority to find them and make it right. You know, if I cut them off in the parking lot or if I said I snapped at them at work, I will seek them out the next day and say, listen, man, I'm so sorry I was short with you yesterday. I had other stuff in my head. Let me get you a cup of coffee, man. I have found that those two things, those simple two things, one, at the end of the day, it makes me kind of appreciate the life I'm living. Like I I feel more honorable, you know, like I've I've earned my trident once again. But two, if I'm an asshole to you, like say Chris, say like I just I said something I should have yesterday, I made some some cutting humor. You took like, bam, you walked away going, God, dice dick, you know. But I come back to you the next day and I own my shit. I say, Chris, dude, that was freaking uncallful, man. My apologies. I that was all on me. Do you think less of or more than more of me?

Chris Faust 58:10

Oh, it'd probably be more of just because it's not you're not leaving it unresolved.

SPEAKER_00 58:13

You're basically saying, hey, look, yeah, it's I when someone comes to me and and owns their their oops, they're when they come back and they own their shit, I put them a notch up on my book, you know, like dude, that guy's that guy's awesome. So here I I took something that was bad, that was potentially detrimental to our relationship. If I would have left it unsaid, our lives would probably forever grow apart. You would avoid me, I'd avoid you, and that's where we'd stand. But uh, because I took that little step and I own my shit, dude, there's a chance we might become better friends, lifelong friends. Our connections would continue. If you walk through life connecting, good ways and even the bad ways start becoming positive, you begin to feel a part of the world around you. And there's this sense of we're all connected, dude. You're just going through life connecting, connecting, connecting. I feel a part of the world now in addiction, which I think is the opposite of connection, addictions you walking through life saying, I don't give a fuck. Fuck you. What fuck them? You're just constantly cutting, cutting, cutting. So no wonder at the end I'm left feeling completely alone, even in a crowded room.

What He Is Building Next

Tom Faust 59:29

All right, and um right before we started the podcast, um, I said I would come back to touching on what's going on in your life now, after the book, after the audio book. Where are you headed here?

SPEAKER_00 59:43

Okay. It's been a busy year, guys. The book was huge, a big drop on available now on Amazon in every single form or any way you want it. They got it there. Um, the book, podcasts, uh, speaking circuit. I'm at number numerous conventions, uh, safety stand downs, different commands. Uh, I've been involved with EduWap. It's uh the education of Ukraine in war and peace, where I'm working with them. The Ukrainian infrastructure, believe it or not, is uh is at a crisis level. They don't have therapists over there. They're they're just you know dealing with PTSD, all the the negative effects of war. They're very ill-equipped to handle this. So um several universities have gotten together and we're sending over uh different uh like resources on the counseling film. So I've been over there several times this year, uh working with Ukraine, trying to get them ready for this heavy onslaught. Uh, someday this conflict's gonna end and they're gonna need a number of therapists in their country, which they do not have currently. Uh, on top of that, uh I've been, you know, I have three kids who are in college now and one going into the military. So, you know, being a dad on the verge of it becoming an empty nester is a different, uh, a different mode I have to enter into. And and then also uh I'm a uh professor at Old Maine University working with them and being married to a superhero of a wife that's just keeping me on my toes. All of that's been a very busy, productive year. And I mean, well, I think one of the highlights of this year has been putting me in touch with uh I didn't know there were so many different groups, like a veteran support group, veteran voices, these different platforms out there that I can now put in my role decks and feed people to and just give them access to this because this is this stuff is amazing. You know, it's uh you when you get really into this, you forget, you think that you're pushing against this huge force, and you got to realize we're I'm not alone. There's so many people like you guys out there helping in this battle. It makes me feel like this is something we can do. We can do this together. We're not being overwhelmed by the suicide rates and the addiction rates, and you know, we're hearing about all this negativity. But when I I'm exposed to more and more of these, you know, podcasts and conventions and you know support groups. I'm realizing there's a lot more people on my team and or our team than I realized.

Tom Faust 1:02:15

Um yeah, that's why we do what we do. They like you said earlier about uh you get dropped out of the military, and it's like, well, you know, thanks for your service. Have a great time. With no transition training, nothing to get you worked into it. And that's why we do this to give stories of transition, how people overcame the issues to hopefully prevent others from having to go through the pain, but be able to work it through.

Chris Faust 1:02:42

Yeah, the big thing is to let people know they're not alone. That's what that's what a lot of these things do.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:48

You're not alone, man.

Chris Faust 1:02:50

There's people out there that want to help, and that's yeah, like like Dad was saying, we just we want to pass the information along, and we definitely thank people like you uh for coming on to these things and taking your time, yeah, spending time telling us what you do, what you have, and giving the opportunity to uh reach more people.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:08

My editor flat out said to me in my book, he says, Listen, you cannot print this. You're gonna get sued, you're gonna get you're gonna get so much shit thrown at you. It you just the legals don't why are you printing this? Some of the stuff's so embarrassing. Why? And that's the reason. I mean, the whole reason I put myself out there is like so someone out there can realize they're not alone. Listen, we all do crazy shit, you know. You think someone who does wild stuff in public doesn't do wild stuff in private. I mean, this is just the the people we are, and and you know, I I put it out there. This is not a shoot 'em up Navy SEAL hero story. This is like the other story. This is like, if you could see, you're not alone out there, man. We all do shit. Yeah. And there's a way out.

Tom Faust 1:03:55

Okay. Well,

Final Thanks And Share The Message

Tom Faust 1:03:56

we uh just want to thank you for being on here with uh with us. I love having you on here. Uh previous one was a great episode. This is a great episode, and awesome. Uh yeah, just love having you on.

Chris Faust 1:04:07

Yeah, thank everybody else for yeah. We thank everybody else for you know taking the time out of their day to watch this. Pass the message along, you know, get get it out there, help people, and uh like, subscribe, share, do uh everything that we can to get the word out there because these are just awesome great resources that we're happy to uh happy to help.

Tom Faust 1:04:24

Uh yeah. All right. So with that, um yeah, thanks for watching. If anybody you know really needs to hear this story, make sure you share this episode with them. And we'll share links to uh Dr. Dice, his uh his company, his program. So all my social media is Dr.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:44

Dice, just search it. I made it easy for you.

Tom Faust 1:04:48

All right. So on that, thank you for joining us, and we will see you in the next time. Yep. Bye.